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[personal profile] justwantsafety
Poll for everyone, having played DDS or not:

I know what I think about this line in DDS. I'm curious as to how many other people interpret it which way, though.

The line is, while he's running away from the Embryon again, terrified, shaking like a leaf and stuttering: "I'll give you my territory and my hideout... Just leave me alone!"

I don't think he was thinking clearly either way, but the question still seems to remain...
[Poll #1561858]

For those not familiar with DDS, Harley's the leader of a faction that opposes the Embryon (the player-characters) who came into his base and were chasing after him. And later on in the game, the Embryon decide to vacate their current base completely, in favor of moving to a different one, for whatever that tells you of the rules about bases and armies.

I guess that's all that's immediately relevant. :|a Thanks in advance.

Date: 2010-05-08 07:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scientize.livejournal.com
Harley was admitting defeat in an attempt to save his life. He was giving up his leader role, therefore, giving up both his base and army, since defeat = the victor gets everything, in DDS world.

Date: 2010-05-08 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justwantsafety.livejournal.com
That's just it, though. I don't think he was thinking that far. It looked to me like more just an "AAAAAGHGKFDSS HAVE IT HAVE IT I DON'T WANT TO DIE" thing to me, than anything that the consequences of even crossed his mind. I'm not sure he was even connecting that reaction to admitting defeat as a Tribe Leader, precisely.

Gibbering doesn't imply logical thinking, the way I see it. :|a

The question is a lot less, in my mind, one of "what were the logical consequences of the offer" and more one of his intent at the time.

Date: 2010-05-08 07:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sun-smiles.livejournal.com
LOL I misread your last comment. My bad. CARRY ON.

Date: 2010-05-09 09:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justwantsafety.livejournal.com
lmfao. *hugs*

Well -- even if they'd booted him out and demanded he leave even his body armor behind, there's always the option of starting over, right? Down with an extraordinary setback, but not entirely out yet? But you have to be alive to have that option. It won't matter how destitute you are, if you're dead.

Simply put, everything but your life is basically replaceable. :) He'd have probably paused if he got spared, and gone, okay, now what? What's his situation? Does he have anything left? Is he allowed to take anything (or anyone) with him?

Dire mortal peril first, other concerns after. ♥

I totally wish they'd have let you demand that he join you. I don't think he was in any mindset to refuse anything at that point anyway.

Date: 2010-05-08 07:47 pm (UTC)
prosecutes: (Uncertain)
From: [personal profile] prosecutes
I think it was included.

It's not necessarily that he's a bad guy who would betray all his friends, but more like him realizing there was just no other way out of the situation. It was a life or death scenario with two possible outcomes. If he let the Embryon keep going and attempted to fight back, they'd eat everyone: him and all his army. But if he surrendered, he figured maybe they'd let him go and either eat his army or have them join the Embryon. That's how I saw it, anyway.

It's been a while since I've played, but as far as I remember it, he was the one who kept hiding behind all those traps while his tribe members were left on the other side to fight against the Embryon... right? So already at that point, he was just thinking of his own safety. It's cruel, it's not the best example of what a good friend is, but... it's war. Decisions like that have to be made.

Date: 2010-05-09 08:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justwantsafety.livejournal.com
Oh, totally. And yeah, that's pretty much what happened; you're not mis-remembering anything.

I'm pretty sure those might've been the only two scenarios that may have managed to register with him as possible too, really. I think, if he thought he had any chance at standing up to them to keep anything anyway, he wouldn't have just been stuck in a "scream and run" mindset. When all you can hope to escape with is your life... well. It doesn't help anything when that hope is slim, right?

I guess some of the part that I'm stuck on is the difference between deliberately thinking to do something that's to someone else's detriment (like deciding to leave his guys on the other side of those walls) and simply neglecting to think to do anything to their benefit (like order them all to pull back behind the wall with him, because it didn't even cross his mind to. Which is pretty fail in and of itself, IMHO.) It's like the difference between taking the last of the of pie just so no one else could have it, versus not leaving any pie because you didn't realize someone didn't get any yet. The former's kinda mean (and selfish) and the latter's just... well, it's kinda fail, is all.

Still a little stumped on how potential inclusion by association isn't thought of as being all that distinct from deliberate inclusion by clear specification, too. But then, by that point, I think Serph could've probably demanded that Harley become their jester, and Harley would've agreed if it meant he'd be left alive to do that.

TL;DR -- Serph should've had the option to try taking him up on his offer, so we could see how it might've gone. Maybe even make Harley join them. I'd have loved having him in my party, even if he sucked. lol

Date: 2010-05-09 09:08 am (UTC)
prosecutes: Your argument is invalid. (Hmm)
From: [personal profile] prosecutes
Hmm, in that case, I think of it this way: If before the whole thing at the beginning of the game, they had no emotions... how could Harley have known that it's bad to leave his men behind? If all they ever did was fight because they were promised something awesome for the winner, then all the alliances and strategical formations they formed were just that -- strategic rational thoughts. One such strategic tactic is the option of retreat. Another is surrender.

Emotions aren't rational. Harley just began to feel emotion when the attack on his base happened. With so many strange new feelings crowding his mind at once, I think his offer to surrender his base and his men was just another strategical tactic. Fear and panic overwhelmed any other emotions he might have felt then, so if he had lived longer in the game, perhaps he'd have felt guilt for it after the attack.

But he didn't, so we're left to wonder and hypothesize. When a character has so little going for them in canon, you can choose a lot of potential paths for headcanon. You can just as easily say he's a douchebag who would do the same thing again in Somarium.

So TL;DR and to answer your question: I believe Harley did intend to buy his freedom by selling his tribe, but in the state he was at the time, I don't think he would have necessarily understood that it was bad to do so.

Date: 2010-05-09 09:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justwantsafety.livejournal.com
No arguments here. It's also just as easily said that he thought the Embryon would've forcefully taken everything, army included, anyway... but he might be allowed to keep his life if he didn't actively repel their takeover. Plus, the sooner it's theirs officially, the sooner they might not see a reason to continue attacking.

Surrendering might actually be doing his men a favor.

Date: 2010-05-08 11:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stoicism.livejournal.com
I felt it implied his army was included. Aside from the rules of the Junkyard (taking over a territory = destroying a leader = assimilating their army into your own), you need to consider Harley's mental state: his emotions had just awoken. He was being faced with feelings of fear and panic, which is what caused him to attempt to bargain with the invading Tribe (the Embryon). He felt the need for survival and was willing to do absolutely anything to save his own skin, which included ditching is own forces.

It's hard to say how Tribes and Leaders worked in the Junkyard though. There is the possibility that even if he did sacrifice his army to save his own skin, he could just amass a new one. After you defeat Leaders in the game, there's always another boss to fight later on in that same base. According to NPCs, it's a demon that's become strong enough to gain influence over tribeless demons (even after you kill an army/random enemies, new demons are always being born through the Sea of Milk to allow an endless cycle of warfare. You know, so you can endlessly grind for Noises like I did!) and secure territories.

tl;dr, while the idea of sacrificing his army to save his own skin seems heartless, he may not have recognized it as such that early on so he'd be willing to do whatever he could to assuage the Embryon.

Date: 2010-05-09 07:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justwantsafety.livejournal.com
Hm. Most all of what I got from it myself was, killing a Leader = taking over everything that was theirs (troops, territory, bases, etc) but I'm not entirely sure it had to be the other way around, since they never specified, exactly. Semantics, semantics. :|

Then again, the Wolves did get pasted by Varin -- Vishuddha fell to him alone and all that, but that doesn't mean Varin actually beat them, officially. He just took their land. I know the Wolves kept their white, but I'm reasonably certain the Temple would've given Serph the status of victor, since it was the Embryon that technically ended... that mess.

Even if Harley himself were allowed to go free, and they wouldn't let him take anyone or anything else with him, I don't think he'd have been in any mindset to try arguing with them. He'd probably have just been glad enough to be allowed to live, he'd have run off and not dared show his face around there again. Maybe recruited a few of the new people in the Junkyard who hadn't yet found a Tribe, for protection... who knows. Even starting over from zero is better than dying.

I really wonder what would've happened if he hadn't snapped. If it'd save him from being killed, well -- I don't remember anywhere that it talked about POWs or whatever. For all I know, they could've even forcibly enlisted Harley as one of their infantry, like Varin did with most of the Solids. Not that he'd have been a great help to them, but if it spared his life, I don't see him being in any mindset to refuse.

TL;DR -- nuts to the SMT team for not going on in detail about the different possible scenarios for us? :(

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Harley, Leader of the Vanguards

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